Show Notes
Patricia and Nicole chat about why they’re making a self-help podcast. They also dig into the arbitrary rules we make up for ourselves and how they are completely unnecessary and sometimes a bit too oppressive.
This episode is based on Enthusiastic Encouragement & Dubious Advice Volume 1, Issue 1: On Making and Breaking Rules
Resource mentioned: Forest App
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Sound editing by Jen Zink
Transcript
Patricia: Hey everyone, welcome to Enthusiastic Encouragement and Dubious Advice, the podcast for folks who would rather curl into the fetal position than lean in. I’m your host, Patricia Elzie-Tuttle, a. k. a. The Infophile.
Nicole: And I’m your co host, Nicole Elzie-Tuttle. We’re recording this show on November 11th, 2023.
Patricia: Hey, we have a podcast, finally!
Nicole: Oh my god, we have a podcast!
Patricia: Oh my gosh, it feels like this has been, not it feels like, but it has, it has been a long time in the making.
Nicole: Yeah, I remember we talked about this a bit years ago. By years, I mean pre pandemic.
Patricia: Pre pandemic. We did, we had. chatted with a friend about it, and it was also, I think, before I started podcasting for Book Riot as well.
Nicole: Was it really?
Patricia: Yes. So, what had happened was, I had this idea for this show specifically, and I was like, I’m gonna podcast, and this was before Book Riot brought me on as one of their podcast hosts. So, I think it was in September 2019, when one of my Book Riot editors reached out to me and was like, “hey, do you want to be a host of one of our shows?”
So I put our show on the back burner and I started podcasting for Book Riot. But then the more I thought about the subject, I decided this should be a newsletter to start with. So, newsletter is over 200 issues into it and still going, and it just feels like the right time.
Nicole: Yeah. I’m totally game.
Patricia: Did you think you’d ever be recording a podcast?
Nicole: Oh, no.
No. I would never be recording a podcast. Are you out of your mind? What do I have to say? Who wants to listen to me?
Patricia: I mean, we’ve definitely talked about recording our D& D sessions.
Nicole: That’s different.
Patricia: That’s different.
Nicole: That’s different. Also because that would just help me remember what we did in the last session.
If a wider audience enjoys that, well, that’s just a bonus then.
Patricia: It’s just your elaborate notebook.
Nicole: Exactly. But I think really the big question is, behind all of the newsletters and now this podcast, why are we doing self help and not our D& D sessions?
Patricia: You know, well, this podcast, as I mentioned, is based on my newsletter and I have been an avid self help reader for years.
And like many folks who are fans of the self help genre, we will read the books or listen to the podcast. And maybe we’ll get a piece of information that is helpful, but really we rarely find ourselves helped from the self help. And so that’s how we move on to the next one. And it just feeds the machine that is self improvement and things like that.
On top of that, I was noticing a pattern when I was making lists of books for Book Riot, and I like to create books that are very diverse. Book Riot is known for creating lists that are very diverse. And when I would try to make book lists of, you know, the best self help out this year or self help to get your year started or self help that is good, college graduation gifts, I was noticing that the list of books of authors were incredibly white, they were incredibly straight, they were incredibly cisgender and non disabled, neurotypical.
And then on top of that, I was noticing if I did find self help by a fellow Black person, it was often religious, which is not my jam. And then on top of all of that, you know, so much of the self help, because it’s not written by people who are like me or like you, necessarily, it’s rarely relevant. We don’t necessarily have the funds to outsource our laundry so that we have more time for, I don’t know, yoga?
Nicole: I mean, that does sound nice.
Patricia: It does sound nice.
Nicole: But we don’t.
Patricia: And it’s not realistic for a large amount of people. A lot of self help is selling the dream and what I want to do and what I do through my newsletter and what I’m hoping we do through this show is offering people the practical tips that I have gleaned from my reading, from life experience, and give people the parts that they could actually use.
Nicole: That sounds good. In that vein, what are we talking about today?
Patricia: You know what, that’s fair. For this first episode, I really want to talk about rules. Specifically, the rules that we make up for ourselves. And I want to be clear. I’m not talking about boundaries. I’m not talking about the things that we, the boundaries we make in order to keep ourselves safe and sane and healthy, like possibly having a strict bedtime, or adding movement into your day if that’s your thing or doing things for fun.
I really want to talk about the rules that we keep because maybe they were accurate for a past version of ourselves, or maybe there’s something that we’ve carried from childhood that maybe an adult in our lives had those rules for us. And so we still kind of keep those rules going in our own lives. So, for example, this is more of a social rule is when we think about when to start something.
We have New Year’s resolutions and I talk about that. That’s going to be a little bit of a theme because that’s coming up and we’re like, oh, I’m not going to start this thing until the beginning of the year or the beginning of the month or the beginning of the week. And it’s a way to procrastinate.
Which, I am a procrasta-master. Like, I procrastinate a lot, but sometimes we box ourselves in, in these ways, and it actually keeps us from doing the things we want to do.
Nicole: That one in particular really messes me up all the time, because I’ll be like, “oh, I’ll start that on Monday.” And then Monday comes and something happens and I don’t, and I’m like, “well, guess I have another week before I start doing that thing.”
Patricia: Can’t possibly start it on a Tuesday.
Nicole: No, that’s absurd. Tuesdays are not for starting things. Is that like a weird version of Wednesdays we wear pink?
Patricia: Or black.
Nicole: Or black. I don’t know.
Patricia: I don’t know. And Tuesdays aren’t for starting things.
Nicole: No, Tuesdays aren’t for starting things.
Patricia: I think one of the things I used to have a problem with, and I still have a problem with, honestly, is a strict no to last minute plans.
Nicole: Oh, for sure.
Patricia: If something’s not on my calendar, it’s not happening. And I also, you know, if we are going someplace, if we’re going to explore someplace, I need to know what restaurant we’re going to ahead of time. I’m not making the decision in the moment. And some of this was to kind of stave off meltdowns for myself.
And also some of it, though, was just needing to constantly control situations. And so I really had to look at what was I keeping myself from if someone invited us out, again this was pre pandemic, but if someone invited us out and it was only 24 hours in advance. Often, I would have no real reason to say, “no, I’m not doing it,” except for like, what, it’s not on my calendar.
Nicole: It’s not on the calendar. That means that night I might not be able to get the dishes done, which means my coffee pot will be dirty in the next morning. And really that’s just going to throw off the whole week. You can’t start a week over on a Wednesday. We just had this conversation.
Patricia: Yeah, I often get told by my therapist is I think way ahead of things.
It’s very much if you give a mouse a cookie, then you’re gonna need to give it a glass of milk and then you’re gonna need to give it a napkin and a massage. I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve actually read that book.
Nicole: I think at some point a moose shows up at your front door. It’s really unsettling.
Patricia: How about you? Do you have any other examples?
Nicole: You know, as we were talking about this before, a real basic one for me has always been like, I don’t dance.
Patricia: Mm.
Nicole: I just, and this is like, I guess it’s one of those, it’s a rule, but also one of those descriptions of myself that I’ve held onto for a long time, right? Like. But going to functions, it’s like, oh, I don’t dance.
Which if, as you know, is a complete and utter lie, right? Like, you live with me.
Patricia: Oh, you’re flitting around this place all the time. All the time.
Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it’s just It’s part of how I move around, but I think it stems from one of those areas of earlier where, like, it was a protective measure, as you were talking about, you know, when I was younger, I didn’t have a dance class.
I didn’t have places where it was safe to learn to dance. And so, the time would come at the seventh grade sock hop, where it would be time to dance, and like, I don’t know how to move my body, I’ve never danced like that, I’m watching other people who are dancing, I don’t know how to move like that, and it didn’t feel safe to try without dancing without being laughed at or some way that would end up embarrassing.
I, I was afraid of being embarrassed, and so that just carried forward to like, I guess I don’t dance.
Patricia: Hmm. Yeah. Sometimes that discomfort turns into a rule and it almost feels like you are maybe being dishonest with yourself if you change or if you suddenly start doing this thing that historically you did not do.
Nicole: Yeah, I guess so. It’s just funny because you’ve been with me now, like, even out in public sometimes, or if we, I mean, we haven’t gone to a thing that has involved dancing in probably a little over three or four years. I would, and I’d try, and I’d have fun and try to worry less.
Patricia: Right. You remind me of another thing that I’ve had people tell me is I don’t do karaoke, which, Hey, if someone is embarrassed to sing, they aren’t comfortable singing.
I’m never going to force someone to do karaoke, but the way that I have heard it. From certain people, I know is that karaoke is somehow lesser than, it is a lesser kind of, I don’t know, performing or activity. And it’s always from people who I know who have really good singing voices and maybe they have sung in choir or they took voice lessons or whatever or, or they do shows or they’re a musician and they’re just like, “ugh, I don’t do karaoke.” And I’m like, “what? You hate fun?”
Nicole: I’m more wondering what they expect everyone else to do. Not everyone has, like, a choir they’ve joined, or a personal songwriter and accompanying musicians. What if you just want to sing for funsies, and haven’t written all your own music, and
Patricia: And you want to be social about it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Right? Especially if you’re not part of a choir, or a religious group that has some kind of music involved with it. Like, where are you necessarily going to sing among other people, and sometimes with other people?
Nicole: Aside from when, like, I force it on everyone else in the car?
Patricia: You know what? Fair road trips.
And thankfully, you know what? We are in the San Francisco Bay area and I know there are some actual like queer chorus groups that are secular and stuff like that. And we have that accessible to us. But I think there’s sometimes these rules that we have for ourselves are borderline. I don’t want to necessarily say classist, but I don’t know.
They’re just boring. They’re boring.
Nicole: But also, where else am I going to be able to get behind a microphone and sing Fiona Apple songs with my friends? I know the choir’s not doing that.
Patricia: Not any choir I’ve seen, but you know what? If anyone knows of a choir out there doing Fiona Apple, please let us know.
Nicole: Oh no, is this our next venture after the podcast?
Patricia: Oh my gosh. So, let’s talk a bit about why, like, why do we do this to ourselves? I think some of it, at least for me, this is not the first time I’m going to share this, I’m sure, but I went to 13 years of Catholic school, kindergarten through 12th grade. I also grew up in a very strict household. And I grew up and thrived within a lot of structure, and so making all of these rules for myself are ways of providing myself structure that isn’t always necessary because I’m also not five.
And also, I don’t think so much structure is good all the time.
Nicole: Yeah, I get that. I think I fall into a similar category, especially with things like, I don’t think of them necessarily as structure, but definitely like routines. Every day of the week, I get up and I do these same things. Every. Morning. In the same order.
And if I don’t, my day might get thrown off.
Well, I think that’s a good reason to do those things. But I think it’s also kind of the stories we tell ourselves, Oh, if you don’t do these things, are you going to let the whole day be thrown off as well?
That’s fair. Or does it change something about my, my personal understanding of identity?
Right? I am no longer a person who journals if I skip it that morning.
Patricia: Right. Another reason we do this, especially, you know, I’m thinking about folks in Western society in particular is we have this culture of policing, especially marginalized folks. As a black person, I need to have, well, I don’t, my hair is purple, but…
We are often policed about how our hair is in a school setting or in a work setting, a quote, professional setting. We get policed if we have uteruses, we get policed if we show our gender in any way which is outside of what people think is normal.
Nicole: That policing in particular does hit me and it, it does lead me to have kind of a, a similar rule of I try very hard to make sure my nails are done before going to the office.
Because I am so worried about having any little thing that is noticed that might lead people to question my gender.
Patricia: Right. Right. And it’s that line between self-preservation and safety.
Nicole: Right.
Patricia: Versuss doing whatever feels good and whatever you want.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: But then, like, that’s also, you know, having certain things for ourselves, but I think there’s still this culture of policing, like, oh, that person’s doing a thing they’re not supposed to do.
Like, oh, that person let their child open fruit snacks in the grocery store before they paid for them, so I’m gonna go tell security. And there’s already just so much policing of people, both by the government in our society, but then by each other, that we end up also just policing ourselves.
Nicole: Oh, for sure.
Yeah, there’s an internalization of those rules. When you take that to the level of creating rules, Around how you’re policing yourself, that then leads to feelings of needing to be punished in some way when you break those rules.
Patricia: Right, right. When you mention the word punish, I think about how the colonials and the settlers who came to the U.S. were Puritans and that a lot of what we still have, have it going on in our society is based on those Puritan values. On temperance, and moderation, and self control, and all of those things that are very much still kind of put on a pedestal in our society and so we internalize that as well.
Nicole: Yeah. And in some ways there’s moderation in some of those things isn’t bad, but also this idea of there is only one particular morality that must be impressed upon all.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: And that leads to a lot more policing of behavior and even self policing. One could argue that is often what leads to things like being in the closet or keeping secrets about your own personal life from other people for fear of repercussions and social ostracization of things that really are not immoral, but in some ways amoral. There really ought not to be a morality attached to that.
Patricia: Right, right. And I think with all of these rules that we put on ourselves, I think the other thing that I alluded to earlier about carrying rules over from our childhood, from our teenage years, or even past relationships is habit.
It’s habit. I certainly have habits of just making up rules for myself. Like, why? Why? Like, yes, I am the boss of me, but I don’t need to be, like, the Lucy Van Pelt boss of me.
Nicole: The Lucy Van Pelt?
Patricia: Lucy Van Pelt is from Peanuts.
Nicole: Oh, that Lucy.
Patricia: That Lucy.
Nicole: I didn’t know she had a last name.
Patricia: Scandal.
Nicole: Is she the one that some of us would just better know as Sir?
Patricia: No, that was Peppermint Patty.
Nicole: Oh. I thought she called people, sir. Was it Marcy that called her, sir? I am totally sidetracking off here and really showing how much I do not know about the peanuts world.
Patricia: Oh my gosh.
Nicole: Despite having gone to Knott’s Berry Farm multiple times as a child. Anyways, tell me more about habits.
Patricia: Ugh, no, thank you. No, thank you. But I want to talk about, actually, how do we stop policing ourselves so much, right? How do we fix this?
Nicole: Oh… how do we? I mean, what comes to mind initially is that before we can make any changes on how we are policing others in the world, we really have to first stop policing ourselves in these ways that we’ve been talking about.
Patricia: Yeah, I wouldn’t even say we have to do that first. Everything needs to happen at the same time.
Nicole: Fair
Patricia: Concurrently all the time, all the time. But how I address this in myself is when I find myself. Making a rule or feeling like I have to do something a certain way.
I just stop and ask why. I ask why and who? Who says so? Who says so?
Nicole: Whoa, are are you calling for? introspection,
Patricia: Ohhhhhhhhhhhh
I mean generally that’s not for me, but Maybe a little maybe a little introspection.
Nicole: Oof that sounds, that sounds a little difficult.
Patricia: I, you know what, I have a hard time with it, but I think a lot of people do.
And I think it’s something that is, of course, worthwhile. Obviously, we’re going to talk about introspection a lot on this show, but I think it’s also just stopping and, especially if you find yourself with a rule for yourself or telling yourself you shouldn’t or should do something or you can’t do something, just sitting and saying, why, why can’t I?
And sometimes it might not be diving deep. Your answer might just be like, huh, why not? And like, why, why not? Like, sure. Then it might help break you out of that cycle of making rules.
Nicole: This is related to an area that I am frequently talking to my psychiatrist about, which is, I think I’m at the step after that, where something happens, maybe I’ve broken a rule, and I am, like, being mean to myself.
That’s where I’m at, like, trying to recognize that, like, I’m being like, “why am I being mean to myself over this?” And just talking about now, connecting the dots that like, oh, maybe there’s these precursors before that, like, that are these rules that I’ve made up for myself about my life, even maybe these like, you know, things I should be doing for whatever reason.
And I missed it. And now I’m, you know, having what they call negative self talk. And, oh, wow, now I need to go back and look at my rules, too. Thanks, Patricia.
Patricia: So, I think I would like to share an example of this in action, almost in real time. And it kind of goes back to our show timing. We’re releasing this show at an odd time.
It’s not even like the first of the month. It’s not the first of the year. And. Like when we were talking about it, it was very much like, “okay, we’re going to do a podcast and we’re going to release it at the beginning of the year and have a fresh start,” and also all of the information on podcasting out there says you need to do it weekly and you won’t be successful if you do it weekly.
And finally, I was just kind of getting ants in my pants and I wanted to do it, and I was like, “time is arbitrary.”
Nicole: Is it? Time is arbitrary. Oh no.
Patricia: I know. Ask a frog what time it is. He doesn’t know.
Nicole: Huh. For the frog, is it before or after the flies come by?
Patricia: It’s probably either like sun time or night time, I guess.
Frogs have two times. I am a zoologist. That is very scientific.
Nicole: Very scientific. Sun time or dark time.
Patricia: Right. But I also try to think about being a creative and timing the release of things and recognizing that terrible things are always going to be happening at this point, at an alarming rate, and there’s never going to be an appropriate time to release art, and therefore, like, any time is an appropriate time to release art.
Nicole: Yeah, especially when it comes to art. I feel like, yes, there are times where it may have more or less impact, but I also think it’s never a bad time to put art into the world.
Patricia: Yeah, especially things that you’re trying to, I don’t know, help people.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: The other thing is, is hopefully, you know what, maybe releasing at this time of year beats the rush, beats the New Year’s rush and gets us into your queue.
But also, we recognized, hey, we both have day jobs, I have side gigs, I write my newsletter, I write and podcast for Book Riot, and we don’t have the bandwidth for a weekly show right now.
Nicole: Yeah, we still have to like make dinner, do laundry…
Patricia: yeah,
Nicole: …which have to be done on very specific days
Patricia: Uh huh, you don’t say Tell me more about No, don’t tell me more about that. But also it was interesting that I was doing research on what day does… are the most popular days for podcasts to be released. And I think it might have been something from mashable years ago that it was like, “oh, podcasts get the most downloads on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays.” And so then podcasters read that and they would publish their shows on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, so then there would be more downloads on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and it was just a self fulfilling piece of data.
Nicole: Yeah, take the advice and run with it, and now the advice becomes, like, the rule.
Patricia: Exactly. Exactly. So if anything, we really want you to take from this is recognize when you are shoulding yourself or you’re canting yourself or otherwise policing yourself and ask why.
Nicole: Some of that, uh, introspection you mentioned earlier.
Patricia: Ah, yes. So in my weekly newsletter, every other week I have an essay and then the weeks in between those weeks, I offer resources because I am a librarian and sometimes I find that there aren’t necessarily a lack of free resources out in the world available. It’s just a lack of people knowing about them.
So, at the end of every show, I’m planning on sharing a resource. Sometimes it might be Nicole sharing something that she finds. But today I want to share one of my favorite apps that is called the Forest app. And the Forest app is an app for iOS. It’s for Android. It’s also, I think there’s a web app.
There might be a Chrome extension. And you grow a little digital tree, like you set a timer and you grow a tree for 30 minutes. But if you open up, say, social media or any of the apps that you decided you don’t want to allow, then your tree is going to die. So Forest app keeps me from going on social media and maybe keeps me doing things that spark joy instead of doom scrolling for an allotted amount of time.
Nicole: I think one of my favorite things about the Forest app is the holiday or seasonal themed trees you can grow. I love seeing the different ones you grow.
Patricia: Absolutely. It’s, it’s incredibly cute, and it’s incredibly rewarding. I, you can also, you know, you get kind of coins, and then you can get access to different kinds of trees and plants.
I grow a lot of jack-o-lanterns around the year. It has helped me tremendously, I don’t want to say like, “oh, it helps with productivity,” but it does help maybe keep me off social media so that I can do something enjoyable, like read or bake.
Nicole: I also enjoy when you bake.
Patricia: Yes, I am aware. I am very aware.
Nicole: So Patricia, we’re almost done here. I want to know, right now, what’s filling your cup?
Patricia: Mmm.
I think I’m at that special time of year where I have less required reading for my bookish work. And so I am just able to read with abandon and just consume books that I want to read, I don’t have to worry about, oh, it’s a book that I also want to write about, or it’s a book I also want to podcast about.
And I get to get to all the books and graphic novels and comic books that I didn’t get to earlier in the year. How about you? What’s filling your cup right now?
Nicole: I’m really enjoying the incoming cold weather and pairing that with hot drinks. Hot drinks are hard to, I guess, stomach in the summertime, but it’s finally being hot drink season and I just love sitting with a big mug of hot chocolate or tea.
It’s being very cozy.
Patricia: I hear you on that. Well, that’s our show for today.
Nicole: You can find the full show notes and transcript at eedapod.com. That’s E-E-D-A-P-O d.com. There you can also find a link to our Patreon, our bookshop link, the podcast email list, and a link to the ongoing, enthusiastic encouragement and dubious advice newsletter.
You can find us on Instagram and Bluesky at eedapod and email us at eedapod@gmail.com.
Patricia: We are nothing if not consistent.
Nicole: We would appreciate it so much if you can subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts that allow ratings. It goes really far in helping other people find us.
Patricia: In the meantime, we hope you find ways to be kind to yourself, drink some water, unclench your jaw, and we’ll be talking to you soon. Nicole: I feel like you can really hear that I grew up in LA.