Show Notes
Patricia and Nicole chat about their upcoming wedding anniversary and share their tradition of rereading their vows every year. They talk about how the ways in which their vows have helped them maintain their romantic relationship and how they have been really useful in friendships and family relationships, too. It’s a bit of queer relationship advice that might actually be helpful!
Mentioned on the show:
- The Feel Wheel by Geoffrey Roberts
- Emotion Sensation Wheel by Lindsay Braman (or you can download it here)
- Tea & Empathy by Kate Kenfield
Find the full show notes and official transcript on our website: eedapod.com
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Sound editing by Jen Zink
Transcript
Music: [Intro Music]
Patricia: Hello, my brave little toasters. Welcome to Enthusiastic Encouragement and Dubious Advice, the podcast for folks who would rather curl into the fetal position than lean in. I’m your host, Patricia Elzie-Tuttle.
Nicole: And I’m probably going to happy-cry this episode, Nicole Elzie-Tuttle. We are recording this show on April 23rd, 2024.
Patricia: Probably going to cry this episode.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Well, we have Kleenex and mute buttons.
Nicole: Yeah, I promise not to, like, sniffle into the microphone.
Patricia: Yeah, please don’t.
Happy belated Earth Day.
Nicole: Is that like the Earth’s birthday?
Patricia: No, it’s the day where we talk about how humans are ruining the Earth.
Nicole: Oh.
Patricia: I was the co-president of the E-Team in high school, the Environmental Team.
But, you know, we were cool, so E-Team.
Nicole: This was probably before E became, like…
Patricia: email. Yeah.
Nicole: Email and then E everything else, right?
Patricia: Yeah. Before E meant electronic. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Yeah. This was in the like mid, late 90s.
Nicole: Ooh.
Patricia: And it was during my tenure that we got recycling bins on campus and it was the E-Team’s responsibility to go around and like empty the bins.
Music: Oh.
Patricia: But we didn’t recycle before my tenure, and like, where were we going to throw all of our Fruitopia and Clearly Canadian bottles?
Nicole: Wow.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: I don’t think we recycled at my elementary school.
Patricia: No.
Nicole: No.
Patricia: Mm.
The other day, also, we went to the ballet just on Saturday, and it was also 420, and so people on the road weren’t their best selves.
But we’re driving through San Francisco and you were like, there is a naked person riding a bicycle. And I was like, what? And then he like, zoomed by and I was like, there’s a naked person riding a bicycle.
Nicole: Which, to be fair, is not a completely unknown site in certain parts of San Francisco.
Patricia: Correct. But then we got closer to where we were parking for the ballet and at City Hall, I was like, there are a bunch of naked people on bicycles?
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: And so I went to The Google and it was World Naked Bike Ride Day. So, we caught them maybe a couple hours after it had started. It’s like a 16 mile route, I learned.
Nicole: Did it end up in The Haight at some point?
Patricia: It went through The Haight at some point, and then I think it ended in The Castro at like a bar or something.
Nicole: I would have kind of been curious to see how the mash up of 420 revelers and World Naked Bike Ride Day, like, how did that all just wash together?
Patricia: I don’t know, but it was…
Nicole: I should say, I don’t really want to have seen that,
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: but I would like to be told.
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: I want to hear the stories, I don’t need the visuals.
Patricia: You know, that’s fair. That’s fair. But we were just all dressed up, driving in your little car. Oh, we’re going to go to the ballet. That is just like…
Nicole: Naked people!
Patricia: Naked people and also people like driving really poorly.
Nicole: [Laugh] It was a day.
Patricia: It was a day.
Nicole: Yeah.
This is your friendly reminder that we do have a Patreon, and if you subscribe at our one and only Patreon subscriber level, that’s three dollars?
Patricia: Three dollars.
Nicole: For the Helpful Helper line, and fill out our survey, we will send you a rainbow prism sticker. And even if you don’t want a rainbow prism sticker, still please fill out the survey.
Also, very exciting news. We have now hit the 1,000 downloads milestone.
Patricia: [Celebratory Sounds]
Nicole: Oh wow. We got a fake reggaeton horn.
Patricia: [Laugh] I don’t know. We’re going to have to do something to celebrate. We’re going to have to celebrate that win somehow.
Nicole: Yeah, how should we celebrate this win?
Patricia: I don’t know. I’m, you know what, let’s have people make suggestions.
Nicole: Yeah, tell us how we should celebrate this win.
Feel free to send us a message at eedapod at gmail dot com telling us how we should celebrate 1, 000 downloads!
Patricia: Whee!
So, last episode was our Library Love Letter episode 2, like part 2, and there were a couple things that I failed to mention when we were talking specifically about using the Libby app and the Hoopla app and the library.
Which, it’s so obvious to us, but I realize we didn’t say it, is you don’t have to use the Libby app or the Hoopla app to look at all the material, you can send ebooks to your Kindle.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Just order them from the app, and we didn’t say that, and so, shame on us, but you don’t have to completely you know, toss your Kindle, but you could get library books sent straight to it.
Nicole: Yeah, this is actually my preferred way to read most book books. If it’s not a full color book or something, like a comic book or a cookbook or something like that, I prefer to read it on my Kindle. Like, I send it to my Kindle because it’s less harsh on the eyes.
Patricia: Yeah, and also, after that episode, a couple people mentioned Spotify, and then I also saw someone was using Spotify for audiobooks, and she was shocked when Spotify told her that she was at her time limit.
So I think that is worth noting, Spotify limits the amount of time you can listen to audiobooks, which is 15 hours, which can work for a lot of people. It doesn’t work for me. I listen to like 50 to 60 hours of audiobooks every month. And theirs is 15 monthly. Also, it is not free.
Nicole: And Spotify’s not a public library. It’s a for profit business.
Patricia: It’s a for profit business. It’s not for free. And also, we know that Spotify has kind of some hinky practices in compensating musicians. I can’t imagine they’re much better with authors.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: But yes, using a library does support authors in a bunch of ways. Libraries still have to buy copies of the books.
It’s a great way for books to find new readers, readers who otherwise may not come across these books, and who can further then recommend their books. It can also build a lot of hype. So, while I’m not shaming people for using Spotify, especially if you’re already paying for it, it does limit the amount of what you can listen to, as well as they still have a limited catalog.
Nicole: Yeah, I’d go through 15 hours of audiobook in like, a week.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: I guess if I can’t find it anywhere else, it’s good to know that it exists.
Patricia: Yeah, I wonder if it’s, if it’s one that, there are no waitlists, so maybe there’s something on there, like if I’m desperate to listen to something and the library has a huge waitlist?
Nicole: Yeah, maybe.
Patricia: Maybe.
Nicole: But we’re also in the position where we do have Spotify, so we can do that.
Patricia: Yeah, exactly.
Nicole: Not everyone can do that, and that was the point of the library.
Patricia: And that’s the point of the library, yeah.
Music: [Transition Music]
Patricia: So.
Nicole: [Sigh]
Patricia: Big sigh, I know.
Our wedding anniversary is coming up a few days after this episode gets dropped, and we’ve been together for 12 years, and we, this will be our 7th wedding anniversary.
Nicole: Is there a fun, like, like, when you get up into the high numbers, it’s like, this is…
Patricia: No I think…
Nicole: your gold, this is your silver, is there a…
Patricia: there’s low numbers, too.
Nicole: What is, what is number seven?
Patricia: I think one like paper.
Nicole: Does anyone know what number seven is?
Patricia: I’m sure we have access to the internet and we can look this up.
Nicole: Maybe it’s the book. Is it our book anniversary?
Patricia: [Laugh] It’s probably, like it was always Like, materials? So, I’m like, is it like, ceramic? Is it
Nicole: [Laugh]
Patricia: Right? Like, cause I think an earlier one is wood, like a gift made of wood, and like I don’t know.
Nicole: Do I have to get you another, like, Sur La Table or
Patricia: Le Creuset.
Nicole: Another Luke Le Creuset thing?
Patricia: I mean, I’ll never turn it down. I will literally never turn it down. Cerise is our color.
Both: [Laugh]
Nicole: So, every year on our anniversary, one of the things we do to kind of celebrate our anniversary is we go over our wedding vows, and it’s not just like we read them privately, we say them to each other, again, like, in front of each other, with each other, we go over our vows every anniversary. And part of why we do this is because we wrote them ourselves. These were not just the generic ones provided by the officiant. We spent a lot of time on them.
Patricia: We did. We worked hard on this project.
Nicole: But they’re also based on a kind of big and serious conversation we had early on in our relationship.
It was probably about a year into our relationship that we had this conversation and what sparked it was that we realized that we were actually really interested in making this a long term relationship that was really sustainable for both of us.
Patricia: Yeah, and as with any person, I mean, especially adults, we were both coming into this relationship with our own baggage. And when we met, I was in my early 30s and you were almost 30. So some of it, like, we had the time, we had worked through some things ourselves before meeting each other and some of the stuff we had, we were already aware of the ways in which it could get in the way in our relationship, so we just kind of laid it out there.
And we talked about things, about how I’m terrible at asking for help, and so I won’t. And then I’ll just build resentment because no one helps. Like, that is something I know about myself, so I put it out there.
Nicole: Yeah.
We also talked about, like, how it can be hard for me to share my feelings, especially at that time. I have gotten better, but at that time it was really hard for me to share my feelings, and so I would just hold on to things. And let a whole bunch of time pass, just holding it to myself, until it was not a good time, and it had been months and months, and it just kind of sat with me, until it was…
Patricia: Until it was like, that window of opportunity had passed
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: to share your feelings on this one thing.
Nicole: Yeah!
So part of the big conversation we were having was around strategies to put in place to kind of mitigate the negative effects of these things. And that conversation is what became the base for our wedding vows. And instead of writing them separately, like I said, we actually wrote them together and then said the same thing back to each other.
Patricia: Yeah, we made the same agreements and while, yes, we are in a romantic relationship, the vows we came up with have actually affected my other relationships and allowed me to deepen family relationships and close friendships by following similar guidelines. So, we are sharing these because many of these can work for a number of close relationships.
That being said, these only work because we both have complete buy in.
Nicole: Yeah, these probably won’t work if there is some kind of imbalance in or among the people involved in the relationship. We’re not advocating for codependence here, but. there needs to be a certain level of consideration for each other in the relationship, and I guess a willingness to be vulnerable about your own needs.
There really has to be a foundation of mutual respect and investment in each other’s well being. And I think that’s where it really shines through and makes this kind of work is that foundation.
Patricia: Right. I think about, we just discovered this within the last couple of years, that this thing that we both have done for each other and never called out, which is like, if I have cooked and I’m serving food, I always give you like, the bigger piece or the bigger plate or like the best bits of something and we figured out like a couple years ago that you do the same for me and it’s without asking
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: and I think like that little anecdote is indicative of how we interact with each other and how we consider each other, but also I can trust that you’re going to do that for me and you can trust that I’m going to do that for you. So it’s not imbalanced.
Nicole: Yeah, that balance is really important.
Patricia: Unless there’s, like, a slice of the pork roast that I really want, because then I’m taking it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: Sometimes even if I really want it, I’ll look at it and I’ll ask you if you want it.
Patricia: Unless you made it, because then I’m like, you know what, the cook gets to choose, so.
Nicole: Even sometimes I serve it to you, but that’s only because I know it’s going to be so delicious and I like watching you enjoy
Patricia: it.
[Laugh]
Nicole: But yeah, it’s, again, that kind of comes back to that, that foundation of mutual respect and investment in each other, right? I want to see you happy and I have buy in in your joy in part of our relationship.
Patricia: Yeah, likewise.
I think what we’re going to do, like letting everyone know, is we’re going to break down our vows and kind of talk through them.
But before we do that, let’s just say them as they are in full.
Nicole: Okay, let me put a tissue in my hand.
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: This gets me every year.
Patricia: So, since we both said the same vows, we’re just going to kind of go back and forth, so. Okay, big breath.
Nicole. I love you. You are my best friend.
Nicole: Every day, I wake up excited to spend another day laughing with you, learning with you, and growing with you.
Patricia: At the beginning of our relationship, we set up rules that have supported us in making it here today. I promise to keep these rules.
Nicole: I promise not to keep my feelings, good or bad, to myself.
Patricia: I promise to remember that you are not a mind reader.
Nicole: I promise to treat you with kindness and care, and to not be a jerk, even when I’m cranky.
Patricia: I promise to never let the laughter stop.
Nicole: I promise to remember to take care of myself, even when taking care of you. I promise to make sure that we both eat and drink water and to bring snacks.
Patricia: I promise to not be selfish, to always make time for you and us, and to make decisions that will ensure that we have as much time together as possible.
Nicole: I promise to go to things that you want to go to, and I promise to leave things when you want to leave.
Patricia: I promise to uphold your values even in your absence.
Nicole: I will be the Pinky to your Brain, the Gomez to your Morticia, the Companion to your Doctor.
Patricia: I will be the Waldorf to your Statler, the Sherlock to your Dr. Watson, and the Hermione to your Ron. Wow, that did not age well.
Nicole: That one didn’t, no.
Out of everyone I love, you are the one I love the most. I choose you now, and I will continue to choose you for the rest of my life.
Patricia: [Big breath] Big breath.
Big breath.
Dab at my eyes a little bit here.
Nicole: Yeah, I mostly made it.
Patricia: I mostly made it.
Nicole: It’s the end that gets me.
Patricia: Yeah. Yeah.
So, we got married at the Beverly Hills Courthouse and.
Nicole: OoOOooh
Patricia: we had…
ooOO!
And we had 13 guests.
My mother, when I was, when I was young, my mother was a wedding photographer, so I’ve been to dozens if not a hundred weddings, and I have a lot of strong opinions about what I did and did not want, and a big part of that was that I didn’t want us to go into debt for a wedding.
Nicole: I am so grateful for that.
Patricia: Anyway, after we said our vows, the wedding officiant said, “Those are really, really good. Good job.” And I didn’t know that getting an A in wedding vows was even a thing you could do, but the overachiever in me was like, wow, I hope this goes on my official transcript.
Nicole: [Laugh]
Patricia: [Laugh] Got an A in wedding vows!
[Laugh]
Nicole: I mean, it was government paperwork, so.
Patricia: I mean, it was, yeah.
Nicole: I wonder if there was a little, like, did they write, like, a little, like, A+
Patricia: We should see if there’s a little gold star sticker on our, um, our marriage license.
Nicole: Oh, wow. I don’t even know… Do you know where that is?
Patricia: Yes. Yeah.
Nicole: It’s with all the paperwork.
Patricia: It’s with all the paperwork.
Both: [Laugh]
Nicole: Okay, let’s kick it off from the first promise.
I promise not to keep my feelings, good or bad, to myself.
Oh, this one. So I got my skills in passive aggressive behavior from a number of people in my family and this promise kind of circumvents the ability to have that passive aggressive behavior by bypassing that “you should know how I feel” sentiment that, like, it’s a trap that a lot of people fall into, and then the resentment because you don’t know how I feel but, like, I didn’t tell you.
Yeah. I, I know for myself, like, some people aren’t always good at reading other people’s emotions. People don’t always express them the same ways. And how am I supposed to know why you’re sad or grumpy? Like, did something happen? Do I need to get some snacks? I know those are later in the vows, but like…
Patricia: Right, like, I think it’s also like, are you grumpy because you experienced a microaggression, or are you grumpy because your back hurts?
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Right and just letting me know and not keeping that to yourself and then like I’m supposed to somehow know these things.
Nicole: Right.
Patricia: And we stressed that this also means those good feelings as well, like we, we can’t keep those good feelings to ourselves. So, we need to tell each other when we’re proud of each other. We need to give each other compliments. And especially one we do a lot is thanking each other.
Nicole: Oh my gosh, yes. Thanking each other is, it’s funny, it’s a really small thing we do in some ways, but it’s also really big, because it’s thanking each other any time one of us does anything for the other person.
This is just like, opening the door for me.
Patricia: Yeah, I also thank you for like, the things you do every week, like dishes, and laundry,
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: and changing the sheets. Like, yes, those are things that I know you’re going to do, you know you’re going to do, but I thank you anyway because I never want to take you for granted. It’s just as much a reminder for me as it is for you.
Nicole: Yeah. Similarly, I will thank you when you cook or order dinner or anything of that level.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: It keeps it in a position, like you said, it reminds me to be grateful that I have you in my life.
Patricia: Yeah.
So, the next part of our vows is related to that one, but it’s beyond emotions, and that’s I promise to remember that you are not a mind reader.
Nicole: Yeah, this gets into the, the real deep part of the, like, “they should just know!” Like, why? How? How should someone just know what’s going on in your brain. And this, of course, like, if it’s something you have told your person a dozen times, then like, okay, maybe they should know, but if it’s something you’ve just like casually mentioned or hinted at, or maybe said once in passing without like being direct, then that’s not fair. Not everyone has the kind of memory or attention to detail you have, or even picks up on your subtle hints that you think are very obvious.
Patricia: Yeah, I recognize that we are very different. in that way, like, I have a phenomenal memory. I remember so many, I remember too many things.
Nicole: You do.
Patricia: And have such an attention to detail.
And, you know, that happens in couples sometimes, that one person has a better memory than the other. But I’ve been having to learn to stop expecting myself from other people.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: And the other thing is I am not a fan of Brené Brown, but one thing she said that I do repeat often is that clarity is kindness.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Being clear about something, and this is not only in a relationship, but this is at work if you’re a manager.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Patricia: In your friendship, like your expectations of like, hey, will you text me and check in on me? This is a hard day for me. Clarity is kindness, and we want to set each other up for success.
I don’t want you to fail, and I don’t want me to fail.
Nicole: Right, yeah. If there’s something I’m expecting of you, I need to tell you, because otherwise I’m setting myself up for failure, or disappointment, in this case.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: And you’re right, this does go for friends, too. Like, letting people know, like, hey, I could use your support, or I would really like to do this thing.
Like, you just have to be direct sometimes. You can’t expect everyone to know what’s going on in your own brain.
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: Next up is, I promise to treat you with kindness and care and to not be a jerk even when I’m cranky.
Patricia: So first of all, when we said this, jerk is not the word we used, but we’re trying not to get an explicit rating on this show.
Honestly, this one was mostly for me. I’m small, and I’m mean, and I can absolutely roast a person in a way that is both hilarious and traumatic, and that is how I show love, and that is not the way a lot of people feel love. So, I needed that in writing, that I can’t be mean to you.
Nicole: This isn’t also just for you.
I have my moments.
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: And it’s helpful to have a reminder that, like, this is not what our relationship is about. I’m not here to be mean to you, and honestly, I don’t want to be mean to you. I never want to be mean to you.
Patricia: Well, and I think also, that last line, even when I am cranky, sometimes I might be in a bad mood because of something and this is about not taking things out on you.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Which it is so easy, like if that, this is your person, this is your person you live with or you see the most, whether it’s a romantic relationship, whether it’s a roommate, or a family member, or a child.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Like, we promise not to take stuff out on each other.
Nicole: Yeah, that’s, I think, a really important aspect.
Even if you had, like, a terrible day at work, or not at home, or whatever you do, like, It’s not fair to take that home and dump it on the other person.
Patricia: Well, I think, like, it’s fine if we share it. Like, if you’re open to venting and stuff like that. But actually
Nicole: Yeah, like, being mean as a response to that.
Like, taking the terribleness you had enacted on you and turning around and passing that on.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: That’s not, that’s not, honestly, I want to say, that’s not loving.
Patricia: That’s not loving. Yeah.
Nicole: Next one is one of my favorites. I promise to never let the laughter stop.
Patricia: Okay, we actually just had this experience, was it last night?
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: So the problem, there’s a problem with this one.
Nicole: Not a problem.
Patricia: It’s, it’s a problem, the problem is since you’re my favorite person, every night is like a sleepover party and we have absolutely ruined ourselves for the next day because we stay up too late
laughing.
Nicole: I don’t see the problem. It’s some of the most fun.
I love having fun with you. I have fun with you all the time.
Patricia: I was such a mess this morning because we were just laughing all night last night.
It could barely work.
Nicole: This is why I make, I like getting up and making you coffee.
Patricia: Wait a minute, I made my own coffee this morning.
Nicole: I know, I keep having to leave to work at actual work and not from home, but.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: But what, what this is really about is this vow in particular centers what is important to us in our relationship, and that is joy. This relationship is really built upon how much more fun we both have when we’re together, and we really want to keep that in sight. That is one of the foundations of our relationship, is how much fun we have, and I want to continue having fun with you.
I would be so worried if the fun stopped and the laughter stopped.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: This is also the funny thing is, we have experienced other people saying, I have never laughed as much as I do when I’m with you two. It’s just.
Patricia: Just part of our vibe.
Nicole: It’s part of our vibe.
Patricia: Just silly gooses all the way down.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: The next one.
I promise to remember to take care of myself, even when taking care of you. I promise to make sure we both eat and drink water and to bring snacks.
So, I’ve kind of fallen off the bringing snacks places. Normally, I have like some fruit snacks in my, like emergency fruit snacks in my bag. But, this is about no self sacrificing behavior.
Even if you are having a hard time, if you are sick, I still need to remember to take care of myself when I’m taking care of you.
Nicole: Yeah, this one’s a balance. I’m pretty decent at remembering to fill up a water bottle, but I often then set it in a forgetting place, and then we go somewhere and there’s a full bottle of water on the table at home. But…
Patricia: Well intentioned. Well intentioned.
Nicole: Well intentioned. But this one, this one is really about balance. We have to mutually care for each other and ourselves. And that’s really important. Like you said, it’s not self sacrificing, but it’s also not about taking without giving.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: Right? Even if one of us was not self sacrificing, The other one can’t just sit back.
Patricia: Right. Yeah. I think this is also another one of the ones where we’re trying to make sure that we don’t fall into a deep pit of codependence.
Nicole: Yeah.
Let’s see, the next one is I promise not to be selfish, to always make time for you and us, and to make decisions that will ensure we have as much time together as possible.
So here, when we’re saying selfish, what we are using this as a stand in for is choosing to do something that would be detrimental to ourselves in the long run, or to each other, or the relationship, right? It’s something that is really one-sided.
Patricia: Yeah, I think there are healthy ways of being selfish, right? There are healthy ways of doing what we need to do for ourselves.
And so we’re not talking about those healthy ways, we’re talking about things that are gonna jump up and bite us down the line.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: No self destructive behaviors.
Nicole: Yeah, this is also about trying to take care of ourselves, both physically and mentally.
Patricia: Yeah, to ensure we have that time.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Next one. I promise to go to things that you want to go to, and I promise to leave things when you want to leave.
Our social batteries fluctuate, and sometimes one runs out faster than the other.
Nicole: Also, one of us might just be more interested in a thing than the other person.
Patricia: Yeah, we don’t have to necessarily explain why we want to leave. The vibes could be off, right? I could also, I, I could just be in a place and just be like, I don’t feel safe in here as a Black person, we could be uncomfortable, tired, cranky, hungry, and I really just need to look at you and say, “hey, I think I’m done.”
Nicole: And that’s all it takes. There is no argumentation here. Like, there’s no arguing this. And again, this comes back to that, like, foundation of mutual respect and caring. Like, I care about your well being, and even if I’m enjoying it, if you come to me and say, like, I’m done, you are more important to me than whatever that thing is.
So. I’m going to go with you and like, okay, yeah, let’s go home.
Patricia: I do want to say that there is one reason that is not acceptable and that’s “I’m bored.”
Nicole: Yeah, no.
Patricia: Right, like that’s…
Like, especially if it’s a thing you’re doing and you love and what have you and I’m bored is whatever on me. But if I was feeling unsafe in the situation, or if I was feeling something else, then yeah, fine.
But…
Nicole: Yeah, but yeah, this is, this is not a way to just like, get out of here, because, uh,
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: This ain’t my scene. I think it’s also though important to point out that if there was something that either of us truly, like, hated or really disliked, we wouldn’t ask each other to go to that. But there’s also, I would say at this point, probably wouldn’t go to it in the first place.
Patricia: [Laugh]
Nicole: But, like, I’m not gonna take you to something that I know you’re really not gonna enjoy. I don’t know what that would be at this point, but…
Patricia: Yeah, that you would enjoy and I don’t.
Nicole: Yeah, but also, like, if we go to something, like you said, boredom’s not an excuse. If I know you’re having a really good time and I’m just like, “I don’t know.” I’m gonna stay with you because I know you’re having a really good time and I want to see you enjoy that.
Patricia: Yeah.
You know, same, and I think that, yeah, at this point I can’t imagine, like, there are definitely some things that you find that I didn’t think of or I’m like, hey, do you want to go to the San Francisco pen show and look at fountain pens.
And then you’re like, heck yes.
Nicole: But yeah, that’s the thing. I’m also game for a lot of things as first time experiences.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: Right? Like I haven’t done that before. Sure. I’ll go try it out.
Patricia: And I think that’s one of the things I love about you is you’re like, yeah, this looks, this weird/cool/silly. Let’s go. Let’s do it.
Nicole: I haven’t done that before. Let’s do it. Yeah. I want to try all of those things.
Next one is, I promise to uphold your values even in your absence.
And I want to say this feeds back into the last one where we were talking about, like, I can’t even imagine wanting to go to something you would really detest.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: Because I uphold, like, it is part of my duty in this relationship to uphold your values. If there was something that was against your values,
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: I’m not going to it.
Patricia: Yeah, our values are very aligned, and so this one isn’t hard for us. That being said, I think that “even in your absence” is doing the real heavy lifting here.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Like, at work, I automatically think, what can I do to make this space more welcoming and inclusive of trans people?
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Like, that is a thing, and I think everyone should be doing this all the time, of course. Not just because you have a certain person in your life. But, I acknowledge, like, the way people work in the real world. I acknowledge the reality of some cisgender people letting something slide if they think there aren’t any trans people in the room to hear it. And this happens with white people letting racist stuff slide, if there aren’t any BIPOC in the room that they know of. And I think this is also a reminder of just like, I need to be consistent in my values regardless of who is there to witness it.
Nicole: Yeah, that really holds true. And I do the same similarly. For me, one of the ways this really kind of proliferated over the last, what, 12 years now, coming from a very white background and everything, like, I’ve had to do a lot of work to bring my values into alignment because I just didn’t understand.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: And I will say like I didn’t put that all on you to just teach me like I’ve…
Patricia: Yeah. You’ve done your own homework.
Nicole: I’ve done a lot of my own homework to make sure I understand the issues that are important to, and that affect you in your daily life.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: And I won’t say I’m not done doing that, but like, it was important for me to get to a certain level to be able to even uphold that. And I feel like I’m in a place now where I can fairly well go forward. And like you said, outside of the home where we’re not with each other at work, making the space safer and making it a better place for BIPOC people to work and doing things like that and, and acknowledging and trying to talk about more like. Because I work in and around medicine, like, some of the historic injustices of the history in medical sciences.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: Like, making sure that people understand that, and the legacy it has in the work that we are doing today.
Patricia: And I think it’s also easier to do these things at work sometimes, but other places where I am and you are not are maybe my family group chat or, uh, group texts with certain friends
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Or even, you know, things that you, like, you’re not there, you’re not there to witness, you’re not there to give me kudos or a cookie or whatever.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: And it’s those electronic spaces too.
Nicole: Yeah.
In the private spaces of social media
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: and stuff like that as well. Yeah, there’s definitely been times where I just shut people down on,
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: especially on my old Facebook and stuff. When I used to do Facebook more, just be like, no, that’s not okay.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: I’m actually just going to delete your comment.
Patricia: Yep. Yep. But also going back to work, this also means things like I’ve not attended some work conferences because they are held in states where it would be unsafe for my wife to use a public restroom. So yeah, solidarity is part of our wedding vows.
Nicole: Absolutely. 100%. And again, though, that comes back to kind of being in this space of mutual respect and, and having alignment in a lot of the things that we want in our relationship.
And this definitely, this one in particular, should definitely be feeding into your friendships and other non-romantic relationships and everything.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: Like, yeah, need to be in solidarity with each other. I can’t imagine.
Patricia: Yeah. I mean, well…
Nicole: I know a lot of people do it.
Patricia: A lot of people do it, and I also think this is where a lot of relationships broke down after 2016 as well.
And I’m not talking about only romantic relationships, but people have learned a lot of things about family members.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: Where, uh, you thought everyone was in cahoots and they are definitely not in cahoots. Um, and you thought more people in your family or your friend group or whatever would be in cahoots.
So yeah, I think this is something that it’s beyond romantic relationships.
Nicole: Absolutely. So I guess that wraps up our wedding vows and what goes into them. And really, this is the foundation of our relationship. This is what it’s built upon, and what keeps us going.
Patricia: Yeah, and we revisit these every year and kind of have a check in, too.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: About like, hey, we haven’t been putting snacks in our bag, and also we need to remember the water bottle.
Nicole: And also maybe we should take out that, uh, Hermione to your Ron bit.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: We need to find a replacement.
Patricia: Need a replacement.
Nicole: Be the Pepe Le Prawn to your Gonzo.
Patricia: Or the, you could be the Camilla to my Gonzo.
Nicole: There we go.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Both: [Laugh]
Nicole: So what, what do we really want to make sure people take away from this?
Patricia: Okay, I’m sure we’re going to have a whole separate show on this, but my big one is mind reading isn’t real. People can’t read your mind. You can’t read other people’s minds. Learn how to tell people how you feel and learn how to communicate your needs.
Nicole: Oof, I think for me, this takeaway is that your relationship is worth it. And you in particular are worth it to have these hard conversations and put in this work, if this is the kind of relationship you want.
Patricia: And, you know, I recognize, like, we make it sound so easy.
Nicole: Oh my gosh.
Patricia: No. It was terrifying.
Nicole: It really was.
Patricia: It was terrifying. I was scared I would drive you away, but I mean, like we’ve said before, do it scared. I think this is how we’re going to have something sustainable and real. And so we did it scared. We cried a lot.
Nicole: I think this might’ve been like one of the first times I was actually this vulnerable with someone.
It, it required us to be incredibly vulnerable to have this, I say this discussion, these discussions.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: To really have these, these kinds of discussions, it was scary. And we’d been dating for like a year at least.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: And it was still scary.
Patricia: It was really scary. There were a lot of tears. And we, like I said, we did it scared.
We did it crying.
Nicole: But we made it.
Patricia: We made it.
Nicole: And we, we’ve done something really cool.
Music: [Transition Music]
Patricia: For today’s resource. I said like earlier, one of my takeaways is learn how to tell people how you feel, blah, blah, blah. And again, this is not an easy thing to do. And so I want to offer some resources that I’m going to link in the show notes, which are both available on the podcast app you’re using, YouTube, whatever.
And the full show notes are always available on our website, eedapod.com. So, I have three different resources. First is the Feel Wheel, it’s an illustration by Pastor Geoffrey Roberts in Australia, who worked with folks who have limited vocabulary around emotions. It’s set up kind of like a pie chart, less pie chart, it’s just a circle and concentric circles.
In the center there are seven general emotions that then stem out from those you get related feelings that are more specific and the further out in the circle you get the more specific you get. For example, if you start in the center at angry, then you follow it outward and you get some more specific types of anger, like feeling let down or humiliated or frustrated or mad.
Let’s say you follow anger out to feeling let down. And then the outer circle will give you words to give even more detail about what kind of let down. For example, are you feeling betrayed or resentful?
Kind of similar is my next resource that I want to share is the Emotion Sensation Wheel by Lindsay Braman. This is similar to the Feelings Wheel I just mentioned, but it links emotions to common physical feelings. Often, some therapists, especially mine, will ask how something feels in your body. And sometimes for me, I actually work backward. I feel my jaw is tight so I can look at this wheel, find that sensation, and then follow it to the center to see it’s commonly connected to feeling irritated, which is a flavor of anger.
And then I can reflect and think like, “Oh, does this resonate with me? Am I feeling irritated right now?” These two wheel illustrations are free online. I’m going to link to them both.
But I also want to share the Tea and Empathy cards by Kate Kenfield. which look like they’re still available to order online from Australia. This is a large deck of cards that each have a primary emotion and then a few related emotions on each card. I love a card deck, and this one, incredibly helpful. Especially if we are going through a, something big. It’s helpful to like spread out the cards and really pinpoint what I’m feeling. All of these resources list both positive and negative emotions, and when we’re able to give a name to our feelings, especially negative ones, it can help release some of the power that feeling has over us in the moment.
Like I said, I know we said, share your feelings a lot in, in this episode, but in order to do that, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done to recognize what the heck you’re even feeling and put words to it. And this is work that a lot of people haven’t done before. So like I said, I’m going to link these resources so you can start, so you can share them, and they’ll be in the show notes everywhere you can find them.
Nicole: I remember finding the Tea and Empathy cards really helpful back when I was a lot less connected with my feelings and emotions.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: It was helpful to sit there and just kind of go through them, and pull out the ones that sounded or felt like they resonated with us.
Patricia: Right.
Nicole: Or with me, and just start to like, winnow them down slowly. Like, I think I’m feeling this, and like, go through the whole deck of cards, and then sit there with like, twenty, and be like, okay, now looking at these, I can tell that it’s not these ten, and then, okay, now looking at these ten, I can decide it’s not these five, and then I’m left with like, five, where I’m like, this is my primary feeling, and I think there’s some flavors of these other ones in there.
Patricia: Right, and then you can use them to either write about them, journal about them, whatever, or share them with me and be like, hey, here’s where I think I’m at right now.
Nicole: And that’s, I remember doing that a lot, like, being like, okay, here’s where I’m at. And you can even, like, lay them out in various clusters to show how they, like, how they’re bunching for you and stuff.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole: It really provided a good way to facilitate communications about feelings.
Patricia: Yeah, like I said, last time I checked, they’re still available for purchase online.
Nicole: But I like the wheels, too.
Patricia: I like the wheels, too.
Nicole: Because they’re quick and easy to pull up and just,
Patricia: Absolutely.
Nicole: like, trace along and be like, ah, here. It’s a quick way to get it.
Hey, Patricia.
Patricia: Hey, Nicole.
Nicole: What’s filling your cup?
Patricia: I think this is ridiculous, and I think it’s another one of those things that not everything has to be big and shiny to fill your cup. Right now, I am hyper fixating on roasted broccoli. There’s a woman at the farmer’s market we go to that knows our names because we buy broccoli like every time we go and she’s incredibly sweet and has the best broccoli and I’ve just really been loving like roasting it in the oven getting a good char on it.
Just salt and pepper, a lot of olive oil. And then before, like, when I serve it, we squirt some lemon over it.
Nicole: Mmmm.
Patricia: And I just, I don’t know, the texture is very satisfying. The flavor is very satisfying. And roasted broccoli right now is doing like a lot of heavy lifting for my mood.
Nicole: I will note that we, this isn’t like the first time we’ve roasted broccoli.
We have done it in the past, but more recently we were, was it through America’s Test Kitchen or something?
Patricia: I don’t think it was America’s Test Kitchen. It might have been Dinner SOS from Bon Appetit or Milk Street Radio. I don’t know. I listen to a lot of food podcasts. Like, if you ever want to know what podcast I listen to, I listen to food podcasts.
Nicole: But there was one and it was like, put your, your roasted vegetables straight on the pan. Don’t put parchment paper. Don’t put foil.
Patricia: Yeah, don’t put foil and think you’re clever that it’s still metal, like, it’s not gonna get the char you want.
Nicole: It doesn’t. And this is like, completely changed the roasted broccoli game.
Patricia: It’s been a game changer.
Nicole: It’s so much better. It’s so much better.
Patricia: Yeah.
Nicole, what’s filling your cup?
Nicole: Okay, so, I have been working too much lately, and as I mentioned earlier, I’m doing a lot of actually working from the office and less working from home right now. And that means with commute time, I feel like I don’t have as much home time to do other things that I like to do that do fill my cup.
But the one thing that’s keeping me, like, really keeps me mentally in a good place is being able to look at myself in the mirror and actually love who I am. And beyond that, our relationship in this life we have, like, just realizing I’m in a good place.
Patricia: Yeah, I think that is no small thing, to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and love who you are, because there are multi billion dollar industries that are based on people not being able to do that, right? The diet industry, the beauty industry, the fashion industry, they make their money because people can’t just look in the mirror and love what they see.
Nicole: Yeah.
Patricia: And, That is no small feat to be able to do that under capitalism.
Nicole: Yeah, and it’s, I will recognize it’s also very revolutionary for me, but yeah, like, I’m tired from work, and yes, I’m getting up in the morning and like, actually putting on outside the house clothes and stuff, but at least like, as I’m doing that, I can look in the mirror and just be like, heck yeah, that’s me.
Like, that is Like you said, it’s no small feat, and it’s huge, but it’s kind of what’s filling my cup. It’s what’s keeping me going right now.
Patricia: I love it. Well, that’s our show for today. We’d like to thank our awesome audio editor, Jen Zink. You can find her at loopdilou.com. We’ll leave a link to that in our show notes.
Nicole: You can find the full show notes and transcript at eedapod.com. That’s E E D A P O D dot com. There you can also find a link to our Patreon, our Bookshop link, and a link to the ongoing Enthusiastic Encouragement and Dubious Advice newsletter. You can also find us on Instagram and Bluesky at eedapod, and email us at eedapod@gmail.com. Which is where you should also send your suggestions for how we should celebrate 1,000 downloads.
Patricia: We are nothing if not consistent.
Nicole: We would also appreciate it so much if you would subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts that allow ratings.
It goes really far in helping other people find us.
Patricia: We would also appreciate anyone who can subscribe to us on Patreon. Support is going to help us keep this show going, especially without ads. You can find us at patreon.com/eedapod. In the meantime, we hope you find ways to be kind to yourself, drink some water, and read a book.
We’ll be talking to you soon.
Nicole: We did good.
Patricia: I think we did good.
Nicole: Good job us.
Patricia: Go team.
Nicole: Go team.
Patricia: My wife.
Nicole: Oh no.